M I N U T E S

OF A SPECIAL MEETING OF THE

MANHEIM TOWNSHIP BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 2003 – 7:00 P.M.

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A special meeting of the Manheim Township Board of Commissioners was held at 7:00 p.m., Thursday, February 27, 2003, in Convocation Hall at the Manheim Township High School. Members present were: President Smith, Vice-President Reinaker, Commissioners Bledsoe, Gordon and Ritter, and Manager-Secretary James M. Martin.

President Smith opened the meeting by saying tonight we have a very important function in our Township. In late November, the Manheim Township School Board approached the Commissioners with a request to help save money on the price of their school building project by building a new competitive indoor pool on the Overlook Foundation. They figured we would save money by doing that. The Commissioners were in a quandary at that time, since the Overlook Foundation had not requested them to move forward at that time on an indoor pool or on a Community Center. Like the results the audience would see on the survey tonight, the Commissioners were concerned about having to raise new taxes, as the School Board is doing, to build this indoor pool, even though it would save money for the Community by not possibly building two pools. And like the School Board, the Commissioners decided to immediately run a survey to help them determine what the community really needed, as well as an indication of whether the community would support a new tax. The Commissioners have not raised taxes in thirteen years and this set of Commissioners, like those in the audience, were very concerned about raising new taxes. He said tonight the Board would really like the audience to add their thoughts to what they have already found from the survey. At the same time, the Board would like the audience to focus on the true needs of the community. For example, just because only one-third of the Township wants a new library or a school, it doesn't mean we don't have a real need for a library or a school. There are possibly 10,000 people in the Township that want or will use these facilities, and we can't dismiss that need. The Township builds handicapped ramps and parks, even though a majority of our citizens will never use them. Minorities are represented in our form of government. Their needs are important, just as are our children in our society. That is why our writers of the Constitution opted for a republic bred in a pure democracy. That is why we elect Commissioners to represent us in our community. These comments he said he was making tonight were his alone and he asked the audience not to expect the other Commissioners to think the same way he does on all issues. He said they definitely do not vote the same, if anyone has attended all their meetings. He said we have a decision to make on the Community Center on March 10^th, and the input of the audience as well as the survey will definitely help the Commissioners. He then turned the meeting over to Commissioner Bob Bledsoe who will be the moderator for tonight, and he will introduce… He was interrupted by a member of the audience who said he was new and asked President Smith to identify himself. President Smith apologized and said he was the President of the Manheim Township Commissioners, Don Smith. He said he's been on the Board for five years, and thanked him. Then he turned the meeting over to Commissioner Bledsoe.

Commissioner Bledsoe thanked President Smith and introduced himself and said this is his second year serving as a Township Commissioner. He also welcomed everyone to the meeting this evening. He said he would moderate the meeting this evening, in terms of handling the presentations by Mr. Kime and Dr. Polk, and later during the citizen input session. He said the first thing he wanted to do was have Sandy Kime stand up and talk about the Foundation Board and their plans for this Overlook property. He said what we see here is 140 acres of land that we acquired several years ago. It's been three years since Sandy has served on this Board as President, putting together a plan. They've had lots of meetings with citizens. There have been surveys and citizen input, and some of the planning that he will discuss is based on the input that he has received from the community. He then asked Mr. Kime to stand up and present the community plan.

Mr. Sandy Kime introduced himself and said he's only been President for a little over a year. Roy Baldwin was the Commissioner and President of the Foundation for the first two years. He said what he had behind him was a plan of the entire site, plus a little bit more. This is a rather new plan, it is not a complete plan. The plan itself is a work in progress. The property was purchased by the Township a little over three years ago. It originally had 140 acres in it. He then pointed out Fruitville Pike, Basset Drive and Nicholson Square, Foxshire, the existing Overlook Golf Course, the new driving range, and it was hard to see, but he pointed out the drive that comes in, the Activity Center, the swimming pool, and the parking lot for that facility on the plan. He also pointed out the original boundaries of the 140 acres. It did not include the Overlook facility or the property at the top. That property, about 22 acres, was originally part of the site, but was taken off in the very beginning. As part of the purchase, there was a grant being applied for, that the Township did get, and this was where the driving range was put on, and that grant was for golf facilities to expand the Overlook Course and three of the new golf holes were located in the location he indicated. Right away they went from 140 acres down to 118 acres. Within the last year or year and a half, this tract of ground was acquired. It is technically not part of the Foundation property, it is owned by the Township, but the Foundation has been asked to include it within their planning for the entire site. There is also a tract of ground there, about 12 acres, that was an out-parcel, that was taken off of the property from the very beginning. It is still owned by the descendants of the original owner, the Schwartz family. They had to design everything they wanted to put on the site around that area. He said you'd think 118 or 120 acres is a lot and you could put a lot of things on there, but the site also came with a lot of natural constraints. There is a small stream that comes through and then splits in three and he indicated their locations on the plan. One section goes up toward the Schwartz properties, one comes across toward the Overlook Activity Center and swimming pool, and the smaller, usually dry area, comes up and feeds up to the existing pond on the Overlook Golf Course. Within this area (which he indicated on the plan) are wetlands. What is not shown on this plan are the floodplains associated with those three streams or streamlets. There are also a number of utilities that come up through there: a Mobil gas line and some sanitary sewers. So, he said, when you take this 118 or 120 acres and really start looking at it, it is really broken down into smaller groupings of acreage that somewhat limited the ability to create a lot of large fields or Community Center or facilities like that. He said when they looked at the site one of the primary concerns was access to the site. They spent a lot of time deliberating how they wanted to access the site, where they would put a community center or a library, and how it would be accessed from the various entrances. There was a large discussion on whether they should connect the existing Overlook Golf Course drive to the internal drives. They did not want this to become a short-cut, but they also felt that there were a lot of legitimate reasons to make the connections, so if they made the connections, they were not going to make it very direct. It is not shown on this plan, but this drive, Basset Drive, would eventually extend down over to the parking lot at the Activity Center, and so there would be a very indirect way to go through the entire site. Also, a drive would come up from the south. He indicated the Granite Run/Fruitville Pike traffic signal, and said that someday that would be the main entrance. That entrance would come in and again go up, so all three of them would "T" together at the location he indicated on the plan. He said this shows generally the facilities that we are looking to put on the site. The soccer fields have been built; they are the one primary facility that has been built as of this date. He said he believed that they were planning on being ready for either late this year or early next year. He said yes, he was getting a head-shake. The infra-structure associated at the entrance drive off of Basset Drive, the stormwater, there is a considerable amount of stormwater that comes down through there off of Blossom Hill, utilities, irrigation, the parking lot, have all been constructed. They are hoping to put in at least two ball fields, they are hoping to locate four ball fields eventually, and indicated on the plan where they would go, north of the main drive. He said they've allocated an area, approximately fifteen acres, for a community center/library, with associated parking. He pointed out what will be the main entrance and said they hope to actually start construction on that entrance back at least to the circle within this calendar year, actually have it constructed this year. He said they've worked with the "First Tee" organization, which is looking to put in three small golf holes, which will be used for kids, especially for kids who have not had the opportunity to be associated with golf – it is more of a learning facility. It will be used also by the Parks and Recreation Department of the Township. He pointed to the center area and said this is where the existing farm house and barn are located (which really don’t show up on the plan). He said they are looking into the historical value of those buildings. They have not decided on the outcome of those two facilities. There are no plans right now to remove them, or to renovate them. He said as they have been planning, when the dollars on how to build things started to become a very big issue, in the last year, they've put a little more emphasis on revenue-producing facilities. So, recently they've looked at putting miniature golf in the location he indicated on the plan. The Foundation has not even seen this plan, so that is subject to change. But, in the general area, they are looking at putting in the miniature golf somewhere in this location. They are also looking to put in a double-ended driving range, to hit back into the driving range he indicated on the plan. He said those are the primary things, but they are also looking at providing a series of pedestrian bicycle paths throughout the site, which are represented by the thin gray ribbons on the plan, connecting with Foxshire, and up to Nicholson Square. They avoided trying to come out anywhere along the Fruitville Pike, between Delp Road and Granite Run, because of what they consider the obvious traffic problems and volumes along Fruitville Pike. He said he thought that was it and asked Commissioner Bledsoe if he wanted to take questions and answers at this time. Commissioner Bledsoe said he wanted to save those until the end and thanked Mr. Kime.

Commissioner Bledsoe said the next part of the presentation this evening would be Dr. David Polk. He said he would give a little background on the study they did. He said as many of the members of the audience know, they did a study through the consultant, Ballard*King, back in the spring of 2002, the purpose of which was to look at the types of things that the citizens would want in a facility like the Community Center. What are the things in terms of the aquatic center, fitness elements, looking at other things like a senior citizen center, teen center, and of course, the library. And what came out of that study, just a few highlights, is that 60% of the citizens, of a sample of 300 people, a representative sampling of the Township, of the population of the Township, sampled 300 people, and 60% felt either strongly or moderately strongly that we should move forward with the Community Center. He said that is all well and good, but a lot of people want things, but we have to put price tags to them. He said he does a lot of research, and people want everything, but if we ask them to pay for it it becomes a little different situation. We had that study, and it gave the Board some good generalized results. But a lot of citizens said they'd like to have more input, they wanted to respond versus just 300 citizens. The Board felt that based on that and the situation with the School Board, in terms of wanting a decision from the Commissioners and the Foundation Board, that they should survey a much broader audience in the Township, in other words, give everyone a chance to respond. And that's what they did.

Commissioner Bledsoe said that his occupation and training is as a market researcher and he's been in research for twenty years. He heads up the research for New Holland, which is called CNH Global, so he's done lots of research, and he's the one who designed the survey. Another person who helped with the survey was Allen Sherman, a retired consultant, who spent many years in marketing and marketing research. They did the research design. They asked Dr. Polk of Polk Lepson Group to become involved with the study. He then gave some background on the Polk Lepson Group. They are a small firm in York, and with us this evening is Dr. David Polk. All the surveys were returned to him when they came to the Township. Commissioner Bledsoe said he only looked at five to ten surveys. Dr. Polk's job was to provide a very unbiased analysis of the results, and give the Commissioners a good, clear picture of what the data says, what it means, what the implications are for the community, what this means in terms of membership numbers, because with any decision like this, you have to know what you're doing and you must have some facts. In this situation the Commissioners wanted to know the membership numbers, how many people are interested in the community center, either going forward or not going forward – that was question number one. The second part was, if we move forward, what elements of the community center should we consider – all of it, parts of it, maybe some people have an interest in a library, some in a swimming center, but the Commissioners were looking for resident input. He said they segmented this data quite nicely by different types of households, looking at households with children, looking at the senior citizen population 65 and over, and the other group in between, without children in the household. He said he wouldn't say anymore, but would ask Dr. Polk to stand up and present the results to the audience. He asked that once Dr. Polk is finished there will be an opportunity for the members of the audience to come up and give their ideas and suggestions. This meeting is strictly intended for resident input. He said they were not here to debate, or to pinpoint what each Commissioner believes in. He said the Board's sole purpose here was they did the survey, they've got a lot more specifics to consider before they make a decision, and they want additional input in terms of what the residents feel about this project. He said he'd explain how they'd go about that later on. Then he asked Dr. David Polk to come forward.

Dr. David Polk thanked Commissioner Bledsoe and explained that Commissioner Bledsoe would be advancing the slides as he went along. He said that as Commissioner Bledsoe mentioned, his real role was to receive the surveys, analyze them, do the best job they possibly could to make sure that what they were going to show the audience was an objective assessment of the results. The purpose of this survey was to find out how the residents felt about the center, what their recommendations were as far as how to proceed, and how likely the residents would be to use the center. One of the things that they noticed as they began analyzing the survey is as they got to preferred options, and he knew some of them made comments about this, there was no place to say "I don't prefer any of the options." Indeed, many of the residents did, because they simply did not answer what the options were; he said they would talk about that as they moved along. He said they also talked about the memberships the residents would be likely to utilize if the community center actually becomes a reality. He said they also thought they would look at the impact of current memberships, those residents who belong to current health clubs, current recreational facilities, what might they do? He said to Commissioner Bledsoe, let's go on to the next slide which will talk about the research design.

Fifteen thousand surveys were sent out. Surveys were sent to every household within the Township, with the exception of group residences. The response rate by the time they cut off data collection was right there at 3,437, a response rate that comes in at 22.9%, basically 23%. He said he had to tell them, a sample of 3500 is a sample that any researcher will die for. If you think about it, and he said he wouldn't give a quiz here, but if you think about the number of people in the United States, we have about 285,000,000 in the United States. As he was sitting here he was listening to people talk, and he heard of course the great topic of conversation talking about Iraq and what we should be doing about Iraq, and if you think about it, when we do a survey of the entire society, all 285,000,000, if you ever take a look at the number of people that are responding, it is basically 2000, so what we have here is a very large survey. The margin of error with a survey like this is a maximum of roughly 2.2%, which means that if everyone in the Township had responded, their answers would be within plus or minus 2.2% of what we are about to see tonight.

Surveys were mailed out, returned to the Township, and the Township then forwarded them to Polk Lepson. Dr. Polk said he thought he was very safe in saying, as Commissioner Bledsoe said, that the Township could spend much time looking at surveys, they were simply put in boxes and they received them and proceeded to process them. The survey instrument itself, as Commissioner Bledsoe had mentioned, was developed by the Township. He said when they looked at the results, they analyzed the results by household type, because if you think about it, this survey was sent one per household. So the unit of analysis in this case was household. He asked Commissioner Bledsoe to go on to the next slide so he could show people what they did with the results.

Using the census data, and when you get into the census data, you can actually determine how many households within the Township have children under nineteen, how many have adults sixty-five and over, and then you have everybody else, and we're not quite sure where they are, but we know they don't have children under nineteen, and they do not have adults sixty-five and over. He explained that what they did, and asked the members of the audience to take a look at the blue on the slide, then said fine, these are the percentages of the households that they heard from. For example, of all the household they heard from roughly 28% had children under nineteen. They said, to be as fair as possible, let's weight the data, and this is a very common practice, to represent the population of the Township. So they weighted the data using 2000 census data, so they had these representations within the data. For example, 32% of the respondents, or the households responding, had children under nineteen, 13% had adults sixty-five and over, and the remainder, 56% were all other households. He said fine, enough of the methodology, let's tell you what we actually found out.

The very first question, as the audience might remember, was whether or not the Township Commissioners should proceed with the planning for the community center. He said as they go through here, he will show them a common theme – there will be four bars for each response. The first bar is the total – this is all respondents. The second bar represents people who have children under nineteen, the third bar represents adults sixty-five and over in the household, and the last bar is everybody else. He said he's been doing this long enough that he could tell them that he's very sensitive to life cycle segments. It seemed to him as they looked at the results that the only way to really examine it, and he thought somebody made a comment earlier about the new High School, he said he always finds that when we get involved in community projects like this, that there are different life cycle segments out there, it is understandable, so what he likes to do is to have a good understanding as to how the different segments feel. He said that is what they see. As far as definitely proceed – they had about 23% of the respondents saying definitely proceed. Another 19% said probably should proceed, and the other extreme – 46% said definitely should not proceed, and 12.4 % said probably should not proceed. But what he said they should notice, and it's no great surprise, they should take a look at the differences between the bars. He pointed out the bar that represents people who had children under nineteen, and of those people, 36.3% said definitely should proceed, and another 22% of them said probably should proceed. As compared to, for example, 15.7% of those adults over sixty-five, and again 16.4% of the same households saying definitely should proceed. He said what we quickly see as we look at the results is a bit of a split. Also, he said the audience probably would not be a bit surprised if he told them that as they did additional analysis they found that people who said they'd be very likely to use the center, which was another question; the more people are very likely to use the center, the more they are saying to the Commissioners, go forward with future planning.

As the slide progresses, he said the audience would notice that this is exactly the same question they looked at before, but one of the things they pay attention to is what they call top box and bottom box. Many times you'd say what is the real difference between probably and should or definitely should. He said all they are doing here is they are combining those people who said definitely probably should proceed and those people who said definitely probably should not proceed. So what we see overall is there's a split; 41.5% of the residents of the Township are saying definitely or probably should proceed, and 58.5% are saying definitely or probably should not proceed. And again, he said the members of the audience would notice the split when we take a look at the life cycle segments. He pointed out on the graph the bar that represented the people with children under nineteen and the bar for people sixty-five and over, and the bar for everybody else. He said he thought one of the acid measures that existed within the survey was likelihood of actually using the facility. He said the members of the audience may remember that the question was asked how likely would you be to use any of the facilities within this community center if it was actually developed, and the answers were extremely likely, very likely, somewhat likely and not at all likely. He said that as we take a look at this we'll see that 13.2% of the respondents said extremely likely, but asked them to look at the difference from here to here (and he pointed to the graph). People with children under nineteen were: 27% of them said extremely likely, compared to 4% of the people who are in households with adults sixty-five and over. He said they could go to the other extreme and look at not at all likely, and over half of the respondents said they would not be at all likely to use it. And, again, he said no great surprise, we find almost a reciprocal of what we found over there as we compare the different segments. Again, no great surprise, people who said they support the Commissioners going ahead with the center were the people who said they'd be likely to use it.

Dr. Polk spoke about the next slide and said this was the question where he saw the most written comments. He said every time a survey is done like this, they do pay attention to what people write. So, if you ever have comments, please do write them on these surveys. He said he wanted the members of the audience to notice something, and that was as they took a look at this, and this is the actual preferred center for community options, and this is where they had four possibilities: option A which was the complete center and library, option B which was the front portion and library, option C which was library and swimming center and option D which was the center without the library. He said he told the audience earlier that the response rate was 3,437. What he noticed immediately was that 1,517 people at the most, ranked any of these options. What that basically tells him was that 55.9% or 56% of the respondents opted not to rank an option. His assumption is that they said they were not going to rank an option because they didn't believe in any of them, and so they duly noted that in the report. There was applause from the audience. Dr. Polk continued and asked why is it that when he teaches classes at York College that he doesn't get applause like that! There was laughter.

He said they took a look at these four options as far as people's preferences, and again, these are the people who actually answered this question. They looked at the options three different ways. The first way is they did a ranking and they said this is my first choice, second choice, third choice and fourth choice. He said what they were seeing here were the mean rankings, and unlike everything else they've seen so far, they have to flip themselves on their sides, because here they are looking for the lowest, because the number is here and the shorter this bar is the more it tended to be peoples' first choice. This way we quickly see that out of all the choices we see here, option C, the library and swimming pool, seem to get the most favorable rankings, again from those people who answered the question. There was a bit of a split between seniors sixty-five and over between option C and option B.

The next slide actually shows as peoples' first choice and here things turn around a little bit. If we look at the first choice, now we're going to look for the longest bars, we're going to find that overall, those of the respondents who were interested in any of these and did a ranking, most of them 36.6% chose option B; a bit of a difference. What we find is that those people who have children tended to go for the complete center and library, option A, 29% chose that. Senior citizens were picking option B, front portion and library, it comes in at 45.1%. And we saw the same thing from everybody else. He said that the audience might be out there saying, now wait a second, why is it we're looking at things such as B, when earlier it was basically C? He said they'll see why in a second.

As Commissioner Bledsoe flips the slide, now what we're doing is we're showing the percent of people who picked any one of these options as their first or second choice, and what we will see is – look at where C is. What that tells him is a lot of respondents, as they looked at this, were picking C as perhaps a second option, and a number of them were picking it as a first. But we clearly see that a number of them were indeed picking it as a second option. Again, no great surprise. We find some differences here in those people who said they would be likely to use the facility if it was built. Those people who said they were extremely likely or very likely to use the facility, really picked option A most often. Those who said they were somewhat likely or not likely went with option C.

He said they then went on and asked the residents what type of membership they would probably utilize and here those who might not be interested in the facility would have an opportunity to say very clearly that they would not join. He said if we take a look at it, 63.2% of the respondents said no, they would not join; a bit of a difference. Again, looking our two household types there versus our household type with children nineteen and younger. Then they said OK, if you would join, what type of membership would you be most likely to have? He said the audience would not be a bit surprised to see that the type of membership that the people said they would be most likely to actually use varies by household type. He said why in the world would a single adult pay an extra $250 for a family membership, unless they're really feeling generous. So, they did find that membership varied by household type. He said they then could use this to actually come up with an estimate as far as how many respondents would probably participate in the center. What he showed next was the population of the Township comes in at 34,084. If we take a look at people living in areas contiguous to the Township, we gain about another 11,000 to come up to about 45,955. Using the percentages he just went over previously, you could actually come up with an estimate as far as how many people would probably participate in a center, and again, this is a pure projection. If you take your 34,000 people in the population, multiply it by the 37% who indicated they would choose some type of membership, what you'd have is 12,611 people who would probably become members. If you then say the people living around the Township, about 10% (and it is simply an assumption) of them would probably also join. You now add 1,183 people to the membership, so you end up with a membership of roughly 13,798. There was laughter. Dr. Polk said to please understand where he was basing this was simply with what the numbers are showing. And, if indeed, the respondents were telling the truth, as they indicated what percent would actually join and what percent would not join, those are the numbers you would get.

One of the things we are interested in is to what extent those of the respondents who currently belong to a center, and again, if we look at this, about 63% of the respondents do not belong to a center. And if we recall, about 63% of respondents said they probably wouldn't join. So those two percentages coincide, which he said was something he was always looking for. He then asked what center do most of the respondents belong to – Universal Fitness; 17.9% of those who answered this question. He said that was a good number, 3401, although we lost some people here. But 17.9% of the respondents indicated they belong to Universal Fitness. People who most likely belong to Universal Fitness are right there – people who have children nineteen and under. He said he would point out that those people who are most likely to use this new center are those who currently belong to an existing facility. He said what we then do is say if you currently belong to a recreational facility of some sort, or a health club of some sort, what would you do if a new center was built? The options were: I would maintain my current membership and not join the center, I would maintain my current membership and join the center, I would drop my current membership and join the center, and lastly I'm undecided. He said we would see most of the respondents said as they currently belong to a facility, they would maintain their current membership and not join the center.

If we go on, we said let's take a look at what happens by organization. The three major organizations that people belong to are Universal Fitness, YMCA and Lititz Recreation Center. It says, if the center was built, what would probably happen as far as membership in those facilities? He said what we see is a bit of a difference there. Those who belong to Universal Fitness, about 50% of them, said they'd maintain their membership at Universal Fitness. But then we see that we do drop somewhat as we go from Universal Fitness to YMCA to Lititz Recreation Center. We find that this drop coincides with the gain that he indicated on the slide. These are people saying they'd drop their current membership. If somebody said to him, looking at the results, who is most likely to lose members if the center is built, it would be right there, the Lititz Recreation Center.

He said then what we did was we said let's just take a look at Universal Fitness, since it is the predominant center in the area, and break out the results by household type, to see what would happen. He said what we will see is basically we don't get a major change, we still have most of the people saying they'd maintain their current membership at Universal Fitness and not join the center. He said we also did the same thing for the YMCA, and here we can see there is a difference. People who we call "all others," those who don't have children under nineteen and people who are not sixty-five and over, they are the ones most likely to say they'd maintain current memberships. He asked who were the most likely to drop their current memberships and join the center? It's people who have children under nineteen; 32.5% said that they would indeed drop current membership.

He said then the respondents were given the opportunity to offer additional comments. To probably nobody's surprise, the major comments, and he said they went through all 33,437 surveys and read everything all the respondents had to say, and said fine, let's put them into categories, so we can actually get some feeling for what percentage of respondents were actually saying what. There was some discussion with members of the audience about the previously mentioned number of 33,437. It should have been 3,437. Dr. Polk thanked the audience and joked that he wished his students were that active! A member of the audience made an inaudible comment and there was applause.

Dr. Polk continued and said they found that the number one thing that the respondents said was "…it will increase my taxes – I do not want a tax increase…" 26.1% said that. He said there was a difference by household type. Other comments which were related to this were "…our taxes are too high now, we don't need them to go up any further…" and then there were people who said "…no new facilities are needed…" and "…this is not the right time for this." There was another inaudible comment from the audience to which Dr. Polk replied that some respondents probably could have written that and they would have captured it, because they tried to capture all of the comments that were made. He said that what was they saw as they analyzed the survey. At this point he said he would turn it back over to Commissioner Bledsoe, to listen to the audience's input. Dr. Polk thanked those in attendance. There was applause.

Commissioner Bledsoe thanked Dr. Polk and said the Board appreciated his analysis of the survey results. He then recapped a couple of things. He said the Commissioners have heard the residents loud and clear, and are very sensitive to the fact that with the increase in taxes related to the school building project, increase in county taxes, they obviously understand that the residents cannot digest another tax increase to pay for a community center. There was applause. Commissioner Bledsoe said he thought that was the first time a Township Commissioner has ever gotten applauded, and he's not even running for re-election! He continued by saying that the Commissioners are very sensitive to that fact. He said like President Smith said, the Commissioners have not raised taxes in 13 years, and he said he certainly had no intent in raising taxes in his next three years of serving on this Board. He said they understood fixed income, the current state of the economy in terms of what's going on out there, in terms of the unemployment situation, consumer confidence is at an all-time low. He was interrupted by an inaudible comment from a member of the audience. He continued by saying excuse me, but he was going to speak, and if anyone was going to shout him down, then there will not be a meeting. He said what he wanted to do is give everyone a chance to provide input, that is additional information that he was trying to share with the audience, that he thinks would be important and asked that he be allowed to continue on.

He continued that the Commissioners have looked at the current state of the economy and they know it's not a very good situation right now. It's probably one of the worst times we can think of to talk about any kind of a building project, because of what's going on with the economy, Iraq, and all the things that are happening out there and the Board is sensitive to that. He said what he wanted to do was to get the citizens' input. The survey process was designed to get additional input from the citizens. He said they said they wanted a chance to respond to the survey. He said they did that process and they have the information and now we can digest that in a very unbiased way. We've gotten a professional analysis of the information. All of this information will be very important to the Commissioners versus what is said tonight in terms of their decision on March 10^th. He then set the stage for having the members of the audience give some input. He said he wanted to hear from the members of the audience as citizens in terms of their viewpoints of the community center. He said comments should be only directed to the community center; that is the subject of the meeting here tonight. He said if anyone has some personal innuendoes or battles with Commissioners, this is not the meeting. There will be a Township meeting on March 10^th and there will be a chance there for some of those things. Tonight's meeting is to help the Board of Commissioners understand how the residents feel about the community center – whether we should move forward or not move forward. He asked everyone to focus all of their comments on that simple singular subject. He then explained how this would work this evening to give everyone a chance to comment. He indicated that there was a microphone over here for people who feel we should not move forward, and he asked for the reasons why. It might be taxes, fixed income situation, but let the Board know how you feel and why we should not move forward with the community center. He pointed out the con side and said over here we have the pro side. For those who think we should move forward, he asked them to let the Board know what they think, why we should move forward. He said they might have specific parts of this community center they think should be focused on, such as a library or a specific element of this community center that we should do versus the whole thing. He said the Board wants to hear those that feel we should be moving forward in some form or fashion, and those that feel we should not. He explained how they would conduct this meeting. He said they didn't take names, what they want to do is start with this microphone. Whoever wants to speak first, in terms of giving a pro comment, to come up, give your statement, you have two minutes to talk. He said he has a little timer and once it beeps, he will ask them to finish their comments quickly and then sit down. The first person who wants to speak in terms of giving suggestions why we should not proceed, he'd like them to proceed to the microphone and be ready to talk, and then before that person is finished, the next person who wants to give a

pro comment should come up to the microphone, which there should also be a person up close to the microphone. He said there will be a seat close by, come up, be seated and then they will be the next one to speak. That way we'll get both sides. He said the Board has gotten all of their comments in terms of for or against, all they want now is additional input to help them better understand their feelings. He said he could read something, but he wants to hear them say it because then it has more meaning to them in terms of understanding their true feelings about the project. He then asked that we all be courteous to people who are speaking tonight. All of everyone's opinions are important, whether they are pro or con. He asked the audience to please not jeer someone or talk someone down if they say something that not everyone agrees with. The key here is to have respect for everybody's opinions. He said that's what the Board wants, and that's what they'd like to hear this evening. He said let's start off with a person who'd like to offer a pro comment for the community center.

No one came forward immediately and Commissioner Bledsoe joked that maybe they could take this microphone away. Someone did come forward and he joked that here was their ten dollars and thanked them. There was laughter. Commissioner Bledsoe asked each person who comes forward to please give their name and address.

Hope Ross of Carter Moir Drive said she is a parent of three Township children and said she was here to represent their opinions and probably the opinions of a lot of people in Manheim Township that have school-aged children. She said when they moved here many years ago they were appalled at the condition of the Township library. At that time the Township library was housed in a trailer. She said they were led to believe that that was a temporary situation and that things would improve down the line. She said they did move out of the trailer and are in a small section of a building in Granite Run. For a township like Manheim Township to continue on with a public library in the condition that our public library is, is unconscionable. The library itself is something that can be utilized by every life cycle in this Township. That is one item. She said the other item is that she understands that we have sensitive issues with financial situations with life cycle issues where people wouldn't utilize necessarily all the aspects as much as others. But somebody needs to represent the kids and the kids need a place to go. The kids need a decent library. The kids can utilize a lot of the issues that we are talking about tonight, and she said she wished there was a way to represent them better. She said she was not concerned about private enterprise being competed with. She said she was not concerned with the fact that there are going to be some items that are going to be more popular for certain people than others, but she said she didn't think we should discount this community center and she thought we owed it to our kids. She said we should continue on and at least pursue ways of financing that can take the burden off the tax payer and not bury this thing for the kids. Commissioner Bledsoe thanked her and there was applause.

Herbert H. Weston said he wouldn't give his address, but he's written two articles for the newspaper regarding this municipal center and such. He said one was regarding a comment if he may say and Don Smith said he was misrepresented, although the comment was in quotation marks and he takes that to be that the reporter said exactly the way he said it, but this comment was that if we don't vote for this center, we don't care about our children. He said we do for education. We don't need a ball park, a soccer ball for education, we don't need a swimming pool, a basketball court. What we need is a reduction of taxes for seniors. He then asked for applause. The audience applauded and he laughed. He said he lived in Desoto, Texas before he moved here. In Desoto, when you became sixty-five your taxes were frozen. You could freeze your taxes so there'd be no further increase. Also, you got a 30% reduction on your school taxes. His argument may be with the school taxes, rather than the Board of Commissioners, but he said the Commissioners still want to raise the taxes. But, with that, he said he ended this one letter to the editor with "…do the officials of Manheim Township care about the senior citizens who built this Township?" He said they don't give us any break at all. There was applause and he said thank you. Commissioner Bledsoe thanked him.

Steven Geisenberger said maybe he should be in the middle, instead of the pro or the con, but he didn't think we should abandon the project. Whether that means we should move forward full steam ahead, that's certainly another issue. He said he thought it was likely that the taxpayers of the Township are going to pay for a competition swimming pool. There was murmuring in the audience. Commissioner Bledsoe interrupted and said he asked for one thing in this meeting and that was when someone was speaking that everyone respect the speaker's opinions. He said if we don't respect everyone's opinions, the meeting will be over right now, because everybody needs to be heard, whether it's an opposing viewpoint or not. This is a chance to be heard, so he asked the audience to please give the speaker the respect of listening to their opinions. He said that was very important, and if we're going to have a meeting, we have to listen. He said he wanted to listen to everybody's comments. He asked everyone to please observe that, and then asked Steve to continue. A member of the audience said something inaudible and Commissioner Bledsoe answered that he is giving an opinion and he is allowed to give his opinion, just like anyone who stands in front of a microphone is allowed to give their opinion about what we should be doing. He again asked Steve to please proceed. Steve began again by saying it's not easy speaking in a group when a lot of people don't agree with you, and he said he's sat in many groups where he wanted to not agree with the person and the audience, he said just hear him out and then when he's done, go to the other microphone as Commissioner Bledsoe said. He said the point he was trying to make was it is likely, since Manheim Township School District and Manheim Township are comprised of exactly the same taxpayers that if the School District decides to proceed with the pool, because no pool is being proceeded with at a community center, either on its own as a first step to the community center, or as part of a larger community center, it is likely that the School District and the School Board are going to vote to proceed with a pool, which the taxpayers will pay for. That is the point he was trying to make. He said whether they support that concept or don't support the concept, that was the point he was trying to make. And, he said he didn't think that the Commissioners should allow the School Board to set their timetable, but he does think that the worst of all possible worlds is the taxpayers eventually end up paying for two swimming pools, one at the school and one at the community center. The advantage of the pool at the community center over a pool at the school is that a pool at the community center will allow the community to use it. If we're going to pay for it, he said he'd at least like to be able to use it, whether or not he was or wasn't a student at the school. He said that was the point that he was trying to make. The other point that he's made all along during this process is he does not think we should go forward with a community center with taxpayer dollars, and take the pressure off raising money from the private sector. This should be primary, with the exception of the pool issue, which is sort of out there on its own right now. Once the Commissioners make a decision to spend taxpayer dollars, it will be very difficult to raise community dollars. So, he said if the Commissioners would decide to move forward, he would hope that it would be on some sort of matching basis with the community, and not strictly with taxpayer dollars. He said thank you, and Commissioner Bledsoe thanked him. There was applause.

Steve from Grandview Heights/Pleasure Road, a small semi-detached, said he struggles to make ends meet. He said his wife works two part-time jobs so she can at least stay half of the week home with their son. He said he just can't afford this increase here, $174. He said we don't need this and it is nonsense for them to take money. He has to turn his cable off basically to pay this bill. He said it is not everyone else's fault, but these people who live in the outskirts of Manheim Township can certainly afford this, but the small semi-detached people in Grandview Heights area, it's going to be a big burden on them. He said he didn't see it as necessary to do this to the people who don't make a lot of money, but do want to live in Manheim Township. It will just be a big burden on him and his family and a lot of other people, because there are a lot of single parents who live in those semi-detached houses, too. It's just really not necessary and he said he didn't feel that he had to. He has to pay his kid's day-care which is $300.00 a month and then he has to turn around and pay for that lady's kids to be entertained at a community center. Commissioner Bledsoe interrupted and said one thing he wanted to do was ask everyone to please not attack someone else's opinions. He said he appreciated Steve's perspective. Steve said he was not attacking them, but he was just saying he couldn't support his own child, he didn't want to support everyone else's child. There was applause. Commissioner Bledsoe thanked him.

Claudia Bledsoe from Hunsicker Road said this takes guts. She said she has five kids who are all out of school, some of them are in college, but two of them went through Township. She's been a Guidance Counselor in Ephrata for thirty years, so she is in touch with families and kids. She said she would not want to pay higher taxes, and she thinks it would be unfair for the Commissioners to raise the taxes at this point, more so than they're going to be raised for the school taxes, but she said she would hope they would find another way to consider the community center. She said that working in Ephrata for thirty years she's seen the value that it has for families, for pre-school children, for seniors, the opportunity for kids to have easier access to a library, with lots of really neat programs. There is a lot of pressure on schools to do a lot of things, and schools need the help from other community services. Libraries can provide opportunities for all the generations to come together to work on projects. Community centers can help people of all ages. She said she has parents who are seniors in New York, in the metropolitan area, who are very active at their community center. Her mother has her quilting classes there, her father has his rod and reel sales and they have programs every year for them. There is a variety of opportunities and she said she thinks it is a gift for all of us to have our youth attend supervised activities and get away from the TVs and becoming obese. The trend now is for lifelong learning, we are always learning, and for the community to provide that for us would be wonderful. Manheim Township is a great township to live in. Her kids had a wonderful education here. She said she would like that education to continue and opportunities not only for herself, but her future grandchildren and her kids when they come home from college (there's not much to do around here). Learning never stops, the need for exercise doesn't stop. A community center that would be funded through government funds would provide opportunities for those families who can't afford the expensive clubs, and there are many, many families in our community that cannot afford those. So she thinks it is the responsibility of the government to be considering these things for all the citizens. She said she would hope that the community center, the library and all the athletic facilities could continue to be of interest to the Commissioners, with hopes that taxes would not be raised. Commissioner Bledsoe thanked her. There was applause.

Alexis Arthur of 74 Village Drive said as she looked around here she saw many people, many ages, and we all probably have things that we feel that we disagree with what are being proposed. She said just to make things short and simple, her sign says "What part of no don't they understand?" There was applause. She said we all have our very own reasons for saying no. They have a gentleman that has a hard time making ends meet. She said she as well, she doesn't have children, someday she does hope to have children, however, at this time she feels that a community center in Manheim Township is just not a good idea right now. She said whatever their reason was, she hoped that they agreed. Commissioner Bledsoe thanked her and there was applause.

Nancy Keebler of Roosevelt Boulevard said she has two small children and she wasn’t sure which microphone she was supposed to be at. Commissioner Bledsoe told her she was fine and asked her if she was pro or con. She said she wanted to know and wondered if the Commissioners could answer that. All she said she wanted was a new library and she thought education is probably the most fundamental thing for children. Swimming pools are great, but not every kid is going to win a swimming pool scholarship from swim team. She said she thought they need to encourage their children to read and that's everywhere. She said she takes her kids over to the Manheim Township library because she doesn't feel the library downtown is safe. She said she is uncomfortable. She has a 1-1/2 year old and a four-year old and takes them to the story time at Manheim Township library and it is completely over-crowded. She said she really believes a township with our economic status and our tax base should have a decent library. She asked where that option was on the survey. There was applause. Commissioner Bledsoe said several options included the library, but also a number of citizens specifically mentioned that as the option to consider, so there was very strong interest in the library, much like Nancy is saying tonight. He said she echoed the sentiments of lots of people. She asked if that will then be part of the vote. Commissioner Bledsoe said coming March 10^th, those decisions will be made in terms of recommendations from the Commissioners to the Foundation Board. He said he didn't know yet what they would decide to do, all this is being considered this evening in terms of citizen input. She thanked Commissioner Bledsoe and he thanked her. There was applause.

Tom Frank thanked the Commissioners for soliciting the residents' opinions with regard to the proposed community center. He said he and his wife have been homeowners here since 1981, when they moved from Connecticut. He said their strong preference is that no public funds be expended on this center. He said they are not interested in becoming a progressive community. He said he noticed that the unbiased survey used progressive to describe the decisions that we were going to move to. He said he didn't consider it progressive or unbiased. He said they suggest that those who favor such activism can find it nearby either in Harrisburg or Philadelphia. He said they consider themselves conservative and do not recall that any of the current Commissioners campaigned on a platform of moving Manheim Township to become more progressive. The services that they would like to see performed by the Township include maintaining law and order, keeping our Township roads open and free-flowing, appropriate enforcement of zoning regulations and little else. All recreational activities that the Board proposes are currently available in the private sector for those who want to use and pay for them, as we do now. He said they saw no reason to expect that the Township will be able to provide a better product than those who have already invested their own resources and expertise in planning, designing, building and operating fitness centers. Moreover, he said they object to having their assets confiscated in the form of increased taxes so that the Township can unfairly compete with those in the private sector. There was applause. He asked the Board to please reconsider this fool-hardy expansion of government which flies in the face of current trends, both national and local. He thanked the Board. Commissioner Bledsoe thanked him. There was applause.

A member of the audience said he wanted to echo the comments of the person who was at the microphone here last. He would like to see a nicer library here in the Township. He said ours is currently about the dumpiest in the county. Based on what we've seen here tonight, it doesn't seem likely that we will be going forward with the full-blown community center. He said he just hoped it didn't take the library down with it. There was applause. Commissioner Bledsoe thanked him.

John Kline, a business owner in the Township, said he employs 28 people and said he was more here just to comment on the callous attitude he thought the Commissioners had in regard to competing in the private sector. He said he had nothing to do with Universal, he doesn't represent them, he doesn't know them, all he knew was that if the Township got into his line of business and was going to compete against him unfairly, he didn't know what he'd say about that. His business has seven other locations in other states. He said he's never seen anything like that where local municipalities, he's seen states, but he's never seen local municipalities go in and compete head-to-head with their own tax base, their own taxpayers. There was applause. He said Universal owns and operates a facility within this Township, they are taxpayers the same as everybody else. He said he didn't represent them, he was an objective party, all he could say was he was here because he's a business owner, and he would ask where does it stop? Now that the Township competes in health care, where will the Township compete next? Will the Township come to his business, are they going to get into health care? What else will the Township compete with and where does it stop? There was some murmuring and he said miniature golf maybe. He said he would also like to add just for the comments that he is the father of a seven-year old and a five-year old and he is fully aware of what we could potentially lose. He said he echoes the sentiments about what a nice library we would have. He said he just doesn't see how the Township can get into a position of trying to compete with the private sector. He said he realized he was not here to pick on any of the Commissioners, he said he doesn't know any of them, but when he first walked in the door, he said he heard Mr. Smith commenting and equating this project to putting handicapped spots in and ramps in for handicapped. He said he would really like him to have the opportunity to expand upon that, because he thought that was just a deplorable remark to make, to compare (there was applause) this (the timer went off) to something that allows handicapped individuals easier access to facilities. Commissioner Bledsoe thanked him for his comments. He thanked the Board.

A member of the audience said the last two speakers on this side made it very easy for him because he uttered their sentiments very strongly. Community centers and recreational things are not mainly jobs of government; they're jobs of private enterprise. He said he has no problem with trying to improve a library, that is an entirely different situation, but he said we don't need a big community center to do that. There was applause. He said he too lives in a semi-detached house and if this goes through, he'll just about get his place paid off and they will have to sell it because they won't be able to pay the taxes on it, as soon as they retire. He said they are beyond retirement age now, and have to continue to work because they don't have the money to retire. As far as the pool is concerned, he said it's too bad, but he thinks that will have to go under the school area if they need it for the school. There are enough other pools around to be used. He said he would like to make just one statement. He's lived in many, many states before they came to Lancaster County twenty years ago, and this is the first time he's lived in a place where even the school taxes went up and the residents didn't have a say in it, even to vote on it. There was some applause. He said let's at least have a vote on this if we're going to have anything. He thanked the Board. Commissioner Bledsoe thanked him. There was applause.

Marcos Emig from Murry Hill Drive said he likes making money and keeping it in his pocket. He said he doesn't mind paying his bills and giving his ten percent to the Lord, and he really doesn't mind promoting a campaign that will benefit the community. He has a one-year old son and is trying to think of the big picture and he doesn't want us to raise our taxes, but he said he agreed with the sentiment of the couple here before him. He asked if we need a community center and said he didn't know, but he really would like his son to have the opportunity to read as much as he can in the library, so he supports that. In regards to the community center, with or without it, as long as he can continue to be educated one way or another, that's his only concern. He thanked the Board. Commissioner Bledsoe thanked him. There was applause.

Robert Dale from Candlewyck Road said he has a 28-year old son and a 2-1/2-year old granddaughter and all he wanted to say was so far he's been hearing everybody with their wants and he hasn't heard a real need yet. He said there's a big difference between a want and a need. There was applause. He said if somebody could show him that we have a real need, he wouldn't have a problem going along with the program. As far as the library goes, that could be an improvement. But as far as a swimming pool, he said he got by without one, he always found somewhere to go when he was younger. There was some laughter. He said a big problem with today's people – try to find a volunteer with a child's team. He said he coached for quite awhile, it's been twenty years since he has, but at that they had to beg people to help coach their kids. It became a very big political situation. It also became no longer fun – he quit. But he said, he does think that with today's kids, a big problem with them growing up obese is because we either have parents that are too lazy to spend time with them, or they feel they are too busy to spend time with them, or they don't feel that they're, that they got by without attention, why do the kids need it? He said he was sorry, but that was how he felt. He didn't see a real need. There was applause. Commissioner Bledsoe thanked him.

Dan Diller, a realtor here in the Township, said he was opposed to a community center that would compete with private enterprise. There are at least two or three other people that are doing that same thing. He said his question was, we've got this great big area there at Overlook, and the Commissioners are not even using it for things that wouldn't cost a dime. He said there are signs up now that say "No Skiing" and asked why don't they let people ski there? He said there is a private golf course in York that advertises that they've got tubing, snow tubing. He said we have beautiful hills there in Overlook, why not open it up for kids to sled there, so that they can do activities that don't require supervision, (there was applause) we wouldn't have to block off streets in the Township, kids can do it safely, it wouldn't cost the Township a cent. Why don't we develop low-impact stuff like that? He said we use that golf course six months/seven months out of the year, and we are wasting the whole winter. He suggested opening it up for winter activities that would be free. Don't build a center that would cost a lot of money. Commissioner Bledsoe said good comments and thanked him. There was applause.

Don Reed of 76 Glen Moore Circle said he wanted to talk a little bit about the survey. First he said he did go up to the Township office and Jim Martin made available to him the telephone survey. In the telephone survey 51% of the people said we don't want a community center that we have to pay one cent for. So, what happens? He said we come out with the second survey and the second survey doesn’t give people a choice to indicate that no, they don't want anything. But what he heard tonight is that 55% of the people said we don't want anything, even though it wasn't even an option that was stated there. There was applause. He said the telephone survey was an excellent survey. The survey that the residents got was very poor for several reasons. Number one, it didn't give residents a choice that many of them wanted. Number two, it indicated what the school would cost, and it was only off by a factor of 21, which the School Board has agreed with by the way, that if in fact they go ahead with a $49 million dollar building, the taxes will be that $210 on a $140,000 house for 21 years, so that is 4410 for anybody that has a $140,000 house. If you have more, it goes up from there. He said his last point is the library. He asked the Commissioners to give the residents a chance to make a contribution toward the library. Many residents would contribute for a Manheim Township library, but whenever there is a choice, it includes swimming pools and other things that maybe the residents are not in favor of. There was applause. He again asked the Commissioners to give the residents a choice, if in fact people would like to contribute for various items, fine, let's go ahead and contribute for it. But let's not do everything on a tax increase for a few people that might use it. He thanked the Board. Commissioner Bledsoe thanked him. There was applause.

A member of the audience said she wanted to follow up on something that the gentleman before her said on the tax increase over twenty years. Last year Lower Paxton Township lost $972,000. She said if the Township loses money over what was projected, will the residents pay for it with taxes? She said she was sure that was triple what they projected, that’s a million dollars that they lost. Commissioner Bledsoe said she was making comments... She said no she was asking if this would be a blank check on tax increases to cover losses, because these things do not run in the black, they run in the red. She said 100% of the population is going to pay for something that only 20% of the people will use. Then they have to pay a membership fee, then they have to pay for individual classes. She said she is for the library, but she thinks private enterprise should cover the need for commercial fitness. There was applause. She said back to her original question, last year Lower Paxton Township lost $972,000, Hanover Township lost $531,000, and asked what Manheim Township is projecting that we will lose annually, and who will pay for it? Commissioner Bledsoe said that until they put all the cost figures together in terms of the numbers that they have, they need to look at that. He said what she made was a very good point. The whole premise of this is that if we were to move forward, we'd need to assure ourselves that that would not happen. He said can you guarantee it? She interrupted with a comment about if he weren't so worried about..., but Commissioner Bledsoe said to wait a minute, he was not done speaking, and he wanted to finish his topic. She said go ahead. He said the Board is very concerned about that. They are very concerned about taxes, they're concerned about if it doesn't cover its cost. Like they said the survey said residents don't want tax increases to pay for this. It needs to be paid for by user fees. He said if he goes to places like the Ephrata Rec Center, which he spent quite a bit of time at, talking to the Director there, it is a similar-type facility. It is operated on a profit basis; it had a ten or eleven percent profit basis last year. She said she'd like to see that. He said he'd like to talk and finish his topic. He said he will listen to her when he's finished. She said OK, OK. He said he talked to the Director there. They must operate this thing as a profit. He said they do get some private funding, donations from citizens. But as a profit, certainly their revenues exceed their expenses, they are considering expanding that facility up into Denver, to New Holland, to pick up more community centers. He said he didn't think there were many community centers in Denver, there is certainly a weight center in New Holland, but they're looking to expand their facility and theirs is on an operating profit basis. She said you would think that a larger population like Lower Paxton Township would have an even better opportunity then to operate in the black. She said she is skeptical about Ephrata, but that is just her opinion. She then asked who will cover the losses? She then said Ballard*King, what did they say this facility would recover, what percent? Is it going to operate at a loss every year? She said he projects that maybe they will cover 80% of their costs. So there is 20% of their costs that they are not covering, and that does not include debt, that does not include the tax increase. So, if this 80% that they're recovering shrinks, that is an even higher percentage that the taxpayer will have to cover. She said so everyone, 100% of Manheim Township, winds up paying for something that 15% of the people will use and she doesn't think that's fair. She asked if this was a blank check on tax increases for losses that the Township will incur? Commissioner Bledsoe said like he said before, if the Board moves forward, it will have to be a self-supporting operation. He said they said that, and that's really all he had to say about it. She said all right, but she just wanted everybody to know that we're not just talking about when the thing's built, it's just covering the costs in the long run. There was applause.

Laura Parker, who didn't want to give her address either, said she has a very basic question to ask the Commissioners and out of absolute respect for all of them, she said she didn't think they would be having this meeting tonight had the survey been accepted on the deadline that it was supposed to be turned in. There was applause. She said she also had some information that all of those in attendance tonight would be interested in knowing. On Tuesday after the deadline for Friday mailing, she said if everyone would recall, the survey had to be postmarked by Friday, on the Tuesday after that she was in the municipal office building to pick up a schedule of all the meeting dates of the Commissioners because she intends to attend every meeting for as long as she lives. She said she wants to know what's going on where she lives. While she was there she asked "How about the survey? Did we get a lot of survey forms returned?" She said she thought that everyone in this room would be interested in knowing that two people, Manheim Township employees, stood in the lobby and told her that it was really sad they only got 600, and most of them were senior citizens who were opposed. She said it is sad when no isn't good enough and they have to extend the deadline to hopefully get more responses. She asked how many of the other 2837 came in after the deadline? Commissioner Bledsoe asked to address that, because when this survey was sent out there were some mailing problems through the Post Office, and when that happened, they made the announcement in the paper that they would, and actually they accepted surveys that were returned up until the first week in February. That was a problem, and they will take responsibility for it. They tried to come back and say yes they would accept responses and of course they got almost 3500 surveys back which a lot of people responded after that date. He thought they got the information in the mail. But he said she was right. Ideally that shouldn't have happened, but it did. Still they got lots of responses back after that deadline that was so tight that some residents did not get their surveys in time to meet it. But they did extend the survey process to allow lots of time for citizens to respond. She said she works in marketing also, late responses are not accepted as being valid. There was applause.

Jennifer Clough of Carlton Drive said that she really likes to read so she would really like us to have a library. Her biggest concern of course is in raising taxes, but also her concern is duplication. We're spending a lot of their tax money toward the renovations on the school. And the school is probably going to have a really great library, which she said she hopes to see the inside of someday. She said she thought a great recommendation would be to open the school library to the community in the evening and then we wouldn't have to pay anything. There was applause. Commissioner Bledsoe thanked her.

William Engard said he lives in Manheim Township about a mile from here. He said he moved here about five years ago and was amazed at the size of the Township to start with because he moved in all the way down by Greenfield and his kid got bused up here and he thought that was incredible. So, it's a big township. He asked if we need a community center, and answered that he didn't think so. Again, he said we have plenty of private enterprise. According to the charts, he said it's line anything. They could tell him he could buy three tires and get one free, but if he has new tires, he doesn't need them. The same thing for the people that work out. He said they can't build a community center and the people will come. It doesn't work like that. If Universal, the YMCA, Tim's in Lititz, they have the same thing that is being proposed. The only reason people would leave the Y is because then they wouldn't have to drive to downtown Lancaster. And then you take the dollar. He said he didn't know what the percentage of the homes around here, but he didn't know too many homes that are $140,000 in this Township. There was applause. He said worst case scenario, if they took 50%, he's still looking at the $200 and up a year for taxes. If you take that, plus, he said they didn't show the numbers again of how much it is going to cost to join the rec center. So, he said if you take that he could just go to Tim's, or he could go to Universal, or he could pay even less and go to the Y. The other thing is, shame on him, yes he has a son that goes to Neff. He said they haven't been to the Granite Run library because Lititz has got a great library if people haven't been there. There was applause. He said on the weekend it is not crowded. The other thing is he said he is all for education, and asked why we don't just open up this library and Neff Library and the Middle School Library on the weekend. There would be no overhead other than what we would pay an employee to be at the library that's there. As far as the swimming pool, he said he was still really in the gray on that, because he asked why we need a swimming pool in our high school. He said he went to one of the best high schools up in Harrisburg, he went to Cedar Cliff, and they didn't have a swimming pool. There was only one, he thought Cumberland Valley has one, he thought there was another high school up there that has one. But he said he didn't understand the reason why we have to; he asked what is wrong with the swimming pool we have? He said he understood that we are going to have to re-do the high school and he was all for that; he understood we'd have to expand that because the Township is growing. But, he asked what is wrong with the swimming pool we have? Why do we need an Olympic size? He asked if the Board could answer that. He said he didn't see that in the form, why we have to have a bigger pool. Commissioner Bledsoe said the Board is asking for all the residents' comments and suggestions, and what he said is something to consider and he said he appreciates it. Mr. Engard then said he thought it said we had to, in that letter, he thought it said in that survey that we had, the school had to have a new pool in there, according to... Commissioner Bledsoe said the school is going to look at building a new pool, refurbishing the existing pool. Of course, one of the things like Don Smith, a Commissioner, says they were looking towards the Commissioners for considering such a facility on the community property. He said there are all different options to think about and consider, some of which Mr. Engard just mentioned. All of those things have to be considered and looked at. Mr. Engard said he understood that but in that letter he was pretty sure it said that the school had to have a pool in there because of Pennsylvania State Educational... Commissioner Bledsoe said no. The school has come back to the Board and at one time said that they would like the community center to consider a pool. If they did that and they didn't build a pool at the High School, refurbish the existing pool because there is basically a sixth grade program that participates in a swim or learn-to-swim program. Then of course there are the swim teams, but they said if a pool is built there, if that is a consideration or possibility, then they would use that pool for the swim teams, they would bring their sixth graders down for their swimming lesson in that program. It's something that must be sorted out. He said Mr. Engard is exactly right. Does it go here, does the school do something? The key is we don't duplicate facilities. If we have something at the school, we don't do it at the community center. He said he thought that was the point Mr. Engard was trying to get at. Mr. Engard said exactly. There was applause.

Nial Crawford of Friendship Avenue said he supported the idea of a library but he does not support a community center. He said he and his wife had living with them a few years back an exchange student from Germany and he was a contestant in international swimming meets, so he had to continue practicing his swimming. He said he would bring him over here to the High School two nights a week in order to practice. Two nights a week they opened the pool here for the public. One time he and one other individual were the only ones swimming in the pool. Another time he was the only one who showed up to swim in the pool. He asked if we really need a swimming pool, then said they should answer for themselves. There was applause. He said the other thing is he supports the library, but he wants to tell everyone here, along with the Commissioners there are 82,562 foundations and organizations willing to give grants to build libraries. There are 12 federal government agencies willing to give grants to build libraries. He asked why we can’t go for grants. There was applause. Commissioner Bledsoe thanked him.

Pat Dodson of Wicklyn Road said enough has been said about libraries and everyone is asking why we need a swimming pool. She said not everybody plays golf, not everybody plays football, not everyone is good at soccer. She said she has three kids that were all swimmers. Her husband coached swimming for seven years. It is an activity that exercises every muscle in your body, it's low-impact, it's very healthy, it gets families out and together. Manheim Township has two of the largest swim teams in the County, and that's why we need a swimming pool. There was murmuring and applause. Commissioner Bledsoe said excuse me. Ms. Dodson said the other thing is... Commissioner Bledsoe asked her to hold on just a second, and said the one thing he asked was that when people make comments, do not direct any comments to that person. He said he wants to respect everybody's opinion. There was murmuring. He continued by saying, so do not shout someone down or say anything, because if someone does, we will just end the meeting. He said his job here is to listen to the residents, everyone that wants to give a presentation or perspective tonight. He said he wants to hear both sides. He has to make a decision as a Commission. He wants to hear all the comments, and asked everyone in attendance to please respect the person at the microphone. He then told Ms. Dodson to go ahead. A member of the audience interrupted. Commissioner Bledsoe addressed him and said we are having someone talk here and said we want to listen to this person talk. The member of the audience said he had a question. Commissioner Bledsoe said when he wanted to come up to the microphone, that's where he can come up. Ms. Dodson continued by saying that the kids that do a lot of swimming and like to do it over the winter go to other pools, they pay an admission, and it can be an income/profit if we have a pool that gives winter swimming and lessons and we could make money on it. But, it’s a very healthy sport and at least 700 kids in this Township alone are on swim teams. Commissioner Bledsoe thanked her.

Herb Weston said again he just had one question to ask of the Commissioners. He said there was a girl here that stood up with a sign and she said no, what part of no don't you understand. A gentleman over here said the phone survey showed that 51% said no, that's a majority, so we said no. He said the survey says no. 99% of the people in this room say no, so what do they have to decide on March 10^th? There was applause. Commissioner Bledsoe thanked him.

Steve Villella of 761 Rosemont Drive said he's been pretty active in the Township lately regarding a lot of Township issues, so he said he was sure that many people believe that he is against this community center. And in reality that isn't entirely true. He said what he was opposed to was the fact that this project has two competing components that the Commissioners are unable to separate. The first is the part of the community center project that will address some of the true needs of the residents. We've heard people talk about the library, people with the needs for maybe recreational swimming, fields for kids playing sports on organized teams, even a building that provides teen rooms or a senior center. The second component, and that is the component that he is very much opposed to, satisfies the wants of a select group of the community, a leisure pool, a fitness center, a rock-climbing wall, and miniature golf are all an example of these things. This is what he's opposed to. He said it is gratuitous, unnecessary and wasteful. Furthermore, he said, it should be left to private enterprise, as many other people have expressed before him. Private enterprise generates taxes for the community. Municipal operations consume them. Having said that, he said he also understood why a fitness component is necessary from the point of view of the Commissioners to put into this community center. It is because it supposedly will be a revenue generating operation, that is if you believe the projections that Ballard*King has put forth. He said actually Ballard*King's projections, as we also heard, project that it will operate at $100,000 in the red, so it isn't necessarily going to cover all its costs. But even if it were, he said that's not good enough reason to build it. He said to find another way or don't do it. Don't make the whole community pay for a fitness facility that few will take advantage of. And lastly, he said to remember that the School District has moved forward with a plan that allows for renovation of an existing pool. He said he has personally talked to Dr. Nelson and she has already expressed her intent to renovate it in such a way, if that's the way they move, that all the residents can take advantage of it. He said we aren't necessarily under the gun, like we were in December, when they put the survey out. Things are different; we have an option ahead of us. We have many more options than we at one time thought. He told the Board to figure out how we can do something that satisfies what these people need in their life, and not what a few people deem they want to have, or would be nice to have. There was applause. Commissioner Bledsoe thanked him.

Larry Gagnon of 1723 Santa Barbara Drive said a number of years ago when the idea of the community center was kicked around, the Manheim Township Commissioners and the Foundation set up two grass root committees; one to study the library and one to study the community center. He said he was one of two individuals who happened to have joint membership on each of these committees. He served as the secretary for the library committee, and the liaison to the community center. At that particular time he was in support of the Commissioners' idea to build each of these facilities with non-tax revenue, and at that time, he believed that it was possible. In the ensuing three years, he said he's received an education, and he still believes that the library can be built with non-tax revenue, but he thinks that it is a Mount Everest climb and a stretch to build a community center with non-tax revenue. Therefore, he said he was against building the community center for these reasons. Three years ago they said this, that they did not feel that it was prudent for our community to compete with private enterprise that was paying taxes. Plus in the ensuing three years they have learned that no way would even a tax-built community center pay for itself. It would have to be subsidized by tax dollars. The library in all probability would also have to be subsidized by some tax dollars, because if it was it would maximize that part of state aid which contributes matching funds for a local budget. He suggested that in this period of time when we have all kinds of financial problems, that one way that we could, if we built the library with donations, and one way that we could use our tax dollars for the budget would be to examine very closely the expenditures and the revenue that we are getting from the golf course. At the current time for the last several years, he said he believed that was correct, and for the coming year we're going to be spending something like one million two of taxpayer dollars to operate the golf course. A major portion of that he said he would ballpark it at approximately 400 to 500 thousand dollars goes for the renovation of two golf holes a year. He said he would think that if that program was slowed down, or it's nearing completion, that there would be more than enough money to make a donation to the library and put that on a fiscally sound situation. He said he does feel that it's important to respond to the possibility of not duplicating library facilities in the community because of the construction at the high school, which is going to have a very fine library. He said he believed that the Commissioners, and this is where he thought they'd made a solid decision, not to support one library, because if we have just the one library at the high school, we have a critical security issue. Anyone who has a library card in the Commonwealth is able to go in there. There would be no way of controlling and guaranteeing the safety of our students. Secondly it would be a loss of revenue. We would not be able to get matching funds, we would not be able to get other funds from the state that are available for the kind of first class library that we could have here with a good local board and local management. It would really be turning our back on funds that all these good libraries that we've talked about, Lititz and Ephrata, get. The third reason that we'd have a problem there is that the school has said that the library could only be open to the community after the high school children left. Well, he said that would knock out all the early morning programs for the children, etc., etc. These are three major factors why we need to consider another library facility. He said he was really concerned about the amount of taxes that we are going to be hit with. It's not only going to be senior citizens on fixed incomes, it's half the community that are living in homes of $140,000 or less. He said to remember that that's the median. Half of us are below, half of us are above. He said he would vote not to build the community center for another reason. He said he didn't feel that the survey that was put out really was a good one. He said he particularly objected to the amount and the number of potential clients that would be there. He said he thought that he had not heard a reasonable explanation that we could come up with 10,000 possible members. He said he would encourage the Commissioners to consider the library issue. He said again he was sorry to see that that issue in itself – did we want a library only – not on the survey. He said he thought that there are funds available to build a first-class library without tax dollars and he would encourage them on March 10^th to give that serious consideration. He thanked the Board. Commissioner Bledsoe thanked him. There was applause.

Mary Cunningham of Vista Road said she's been here about five years and she had two boys, one in first grade and the other one starting this year. She said she thought what brought her out here tonight was that she got the survey and she wasn't in for the tax increase. That scared her and when she got the other in the mail, she thought if she didn't show tonight she would get the tax increase. She said she is not for the community center because she doesn’t feel that we need all of that. We have wonderful parks here in our community and every couple of blocks there are wonderful parks. She said she just feels that well her park could use a baseball field. Anyway she continued, there are some wonderful parks. She said she thought also she was looking back a couple of years and thought there were seventeen acres up for sale adjacent to Stoner Park and they went to the residents and asked to buy that seventeen acres. The community did, they (whoever) gave and gave and we bought that seventeen acres. She said she thought it was a wonderful thing. They still have it. She said she thought a library was a wonderful thing and that we need that. She thanked the Board. Commissioner Bledsoe thanked her. There was applause.

Lou Jackubowski of the Bloomingdale neighborhood said a lot of what he had questions about has pretty well been addressed. He said he guessed his question was a philosophical